(12:04:13 PM) bryce: == Start of Meeting 2016-01-08 ==(12:04:16 PM) bryce: hi all(12:04:38 PM) tweenk: hello from Mountain View(12:04:49 PM) valavanisalex: Hi everyone(12:05:04 PM) bryce: how's the new job so far tweenk ? :-)(12:06:03 PM) tweenk: so far so good, I work on 3D graphics related stuff which is something I always wanted to do(12:06:33 PM) valavanisalex: Ace... so you can fix the 3D Box tool then? ;-)(12:06:45 PM) tweenk: maybe ;)(12:06:58 PM) tweenk: that could be a good hackfest item(12:07:14 PM) bryce: == Agenda ==(12:07:19 PM) bryce: For January 8th(12:07:19 PM) bryce: Code of Conduct (final review)(12:07:19 PM) bryce: Budget 2016 [bryce](12:07:19 PM) bryce: Sponsorship levels [kk](12:07:19 PM) bryce: Hackfest 2016: Leeds [alex](12:07:21 PM) bryce: Funded development [bryce](12:07:23 PM) bryce: GSoC 2016 [scislac](12:07:25 PM) bryce: Other Business(12:07:35 PM) bryce:(12:07:57 PM) bryce: is Martin here? Not seeing a doctormo(12:08:10 PM) bryce: == Code of Conduct ==(12:08:33 PM) bryce: guessing we don't have the right people here to discuss this?(12:08:51 PM) FailBit: that's hella paste(12:08:59 PM) tweenk: I am satisfied with the CoC as it is now(12:09:45 PM) bryce: I think all action items are closed on it, I think we're all pretty happy with it(12:10:21 PM) bryce: for now I think we can go ahead and close it, and if there's any follow up to do it can re-ping us.(12:10:24 PM) valavanisalex: I don't know how long these meetings normally last... I'll need to leave in 35 mins. Not trying to jump the queue, but maybe bear that in mind for the Hackfest discussion! :)(12:10:25 PM) bryce:(12:10:49 PM) tweenk: the only request I have is that we should amend the reporting section once we have a dedicated e-mail, e.g. abuse@inkscape.org(12:10:49 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, yep good point, we should bump up your items(12:11:11 PM) bryce: == Leeds Hackfest ==(12:11:17 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, you've got the floor :-)(12:11:29 PM) valavanisalex: Haha, success!(12:11:39 PM) valavanisalex: Right... has anyone read the draft proposal yet?(12:11:50 PM) Tavmjong: I couldn't access it...(12:11:58 PM) tweenk: I had a look, seems decently fleshed out(12:12:09 PM) valavanisalex: Oh... Tavmjong I approved the request you sent from your gmail acct(12:12:38 PM) Tavmjong: I'll try again.(12:12:41 PM) ScislaC: Hello(12:12:52 PM) valavanisalex: Hi!(12:13:41 PM) valavanisalex: So, re Leeds Hackfest: The general gist is that we have a free venue for ~15 delegates(12:13:51 PM) tweenk: I think we could specify in advance what we should work on at the hackfest, at least roughly(12:14:02 PM) Tavmjong: tweenk: +1(12:14:05 PM) valavanisalex: [pending final approval by our sponsors, The Test People (TPP)](12:14:35 PM) valavanisalex: +1 I put a placeholder "theme" in the proposal(12:15:04 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, proposal looks really well thought out to me.(12:15:22 PM) valavanisalex: Seeing as we'll be hosted by a company that provides Testing solutions, I think it would make sense to focus some of our activities around that(12:15:35 PM) bryce: 15 seems like a reasonable max size(12:16:21 PM) Tavmjong: The one thing I would like to see tackled is the GTK3 rendering bug.(12:16:22 PM) valavanisalex: TPP would like to reserve a couple of seats for their staff... I think that's good for us too though(12:16:26 PM) tweenk: Sounds good. We could try removing the cxxtests / converting them to Google Test Framework as we agreed, and then ading some for things such as SPDocument(12:16:49 PM) valavanisalex: Yeah Tavmjong, me too. I haven't done anything further on it.(12:17:03 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, I've proposed a budget to do a dinner out, so you might give thought to a nice place to take the attendees, and set a todo to make a reservation at the appropriate time(12:17:08 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: yeah, that's high priority. I can work on that, since I know the surrounding code.(12:17:50 PM) valavanisalex: Docs/microtests for our rendering code would seem like a nice fit with the theme too(12:18:14 PM) FailBit: Tavmjong: ew canvas code(12:18:38 PM) bryce: you guys might want to think about any tutorials that might be worth having. Seems like those were well enjoyed last time around(12:18:40 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: We have the rendering test suite. I'd like to see better integration(12:18:49 PM) valavanisalex: bryce, that's fine. There are a lot of places to eat. Give me an idea for the budget/numbers when it's fixed and I can easily book.(12:18:52 PM) Tavmjong: sustainability in testing...(12:18:58 PM) FailBit: I have no idea how tweenk even managed to make it work during the cairo render stuff(12:19:01 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: basically you say "make rendertest" and it downloads and runs the tests(12:19:07 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, I had proposed $600 for it(12:19:31 PM) valavanisalex: tweenk, sure, although those are full integrated tests, right? Some microtests for the individual chunks of the render code would be nice(12:19:41 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: yes(12:19:44 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, it came in at $400 last hackfest so I boosted 50% assuming 50% more attendees(12:20:09 PM) tweenk: FailBit: the canvas code is rather convoluted and has a lot of legacy stuff around it but it's actually pretty well designed(12:20:33 PM) valavanisalex: bryce, OK, that's great. We don't tip as much in the UK either ;-) should give us plenty of leeway on budget(12:20:36 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, are there any other decisions the board could make, or next step action items that'd help you move things forward?(12:20:39 PM) tweenk: FailBit: the part I already refactored (DrawingItem etc) had really smart ideas in it(12:20:44 PM) FailBit: indeed(12:20:57 PM) FailBit: I noticed that there was a lot of commented out code around the entrance to the DrawingItem render code, tweenk(12:21:31 PM) tweenk: FailBit: Hmm, I don't have a checkout handy right now to see(12:21:45 PM) FailBit: let me dig it out(12:21:47 PM) valavanisalex: are we happy for me to communicate the sponsor package to TPP as proposed? Or do we want to have a breakdown of the notional value of the sponsorship first?(12:22:06 PM) tweenk: FailBit: an LP code browser link would do(12:22:16 PM) FailBit: tweenk: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/trunk/view/head:/src/display/sp-canvas.cpp#L1689(12:22:46 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: I think the splash screen idea is high value, while other things can be shared as is(12:23:00 PM) bryce: what was the sponsor package again?(12:23:06 PM) valavanisalex: Essentially, they're providing a meeting room for up to 4 days (office hours) + a couple of hours consultancy on testing(12:23:17 PM) tweenk: about screen logo, IRC topics, website announcement, forum announcement(12:23:36 PM) tweenk: and if we get a splash screen, a splash screen logo(12:23:44 PM) valavanisalex: Peter @ TPP can ask their accounts people to provide a notional value for the package they're providing(12:23:48 PM) bryce: ah right. That all seems reasonable(12:23:49 PM) valavanisalex: *TTP(12:24:03 PM) tweenk: I proposed adding a splash screen specifically to be able to feature sponsors prominently(12:24:11 PM) bryce: we also have twitter and facebook feeds that could be tapped fwiw(12:24:17 PM) Tavmjong: valavanisalex: I think we can be flexible in the sponsor package. This is our first time so getting feedback from TTP would be good.(12:24:24 PM) tweenk: right, that's another no-brainer(12:25:01 PM) Tavmjong: bryce, speaking of twitter and facebook... who holds the keys? They are not used much (our G+ account has a much bigger following)(12:25:36 PM) valavanisalex: OK, so are you happy for me to tell TTP we'll do the full package (inc. splash)? Or shall I just mention the non-splash bits?(12:25:39 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, they're in our credentials escrow, so anyone with their gpg key registered can access them(12:26:37 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, and I'd encourage ALL board members / administrators to get their gpg account registered. Email me off list and I can walk people through it. bryce@bryceharrington.org(12:26:56 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, I believe ScislaC has posted to twitter in the past.(12:27:12 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: I think that's what we should agree on here(12:27:22 PM) bryce: facebook is actually used *quite* heavily by the userbase to share drawings, and I believe anyone can post to it(12:28:02 PM) bryce: tweenk, valavanisalex would an official vote on that be helpful?(12:28:26 PM) bryce: I've queued up a few things we need to vote on, I can add the sponsor package to the list.(12:28:30 PM) valavanisalex: Yeah, I guess so given that it's effectively of financial value(12:28:39 PM) tweenk: Yeah I guess so. We can have a vote on whether the splash screen should be part of the sponsorship package. The risk is that it's a new feature.(12:28:58 PM) Tavmjong: If I go to https://www.facebook.com/Inkscape.org the last post was July 12, 2015(12:29:16 PM) Tavmjong: I don't think we should offer the splash screen until it is functional.(12:29:57 PM) tweenk: Or we could try adding it at the hackfest(12:30:27 PM) ***tedg is late, sorry(12:30:32 PM) valavanisalex: Also for Hackfest, are we happy with the dates and duration? (i.e., making it a 4-day event, 11-14 April 2016?)(12:30:41 PM) Mc-: (i don't think we should offer any sponsor space on a splash screen)(12:30:53 PM) ScislaC: Tavmjong: https://www.facebook.com/groups/inkscape.org/ is likely the one Bryce was referencing(12:31:14 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: I'm OK with that(12:31:42 PM) Mc-: (if ther is to be sponsor space, imho it should be either in a help->sponsors page, or in a tab in help->about inkscape)(12:31:51 PM) valavanisalex: i.e., can I confirm the final dates with TTP and get a formal booking reservation?(12:31:53 PM) Mc-: (and preferably the latter)(12:31:59 PM) Tavmjong: ScislaC: looks like that requires logging into Facebook... I've never joined.(12:32:00 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, ah there is also https://www.facebook.com/groups/inkscape.org/(12:32:02 PM) tweenk: Mc-: that's far less visible(12:32:09 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, in any case I think I'm admin on both.(12:32:29 PM) Mc-: the point is to thank sponsors, not make a big ads board, right ?(12:32:41 PM) bryce: Mc-, yep(12:32:51 PM) tedg: I'd be -1 on splash screen, but I like the Help → Sponsors idea.(12:33:22 PM) Tavmjong: valavanisalex: Dates and duration look good to me.(12:33:26 PM) tedg: I like it being higher level than the about screen because it makes people realize that sponsorship is something they could do as well.(12:33:41 PM) tedg: I imagine there are designers at companies that would sponsor, no one has thought of that idea.(12:33:47 PM) bryce: ok, sounds like we've covered adequate ground on leeds. I'll take the action item on the vote for the sponsorship package.(12:34:06 PM) Mc-: (ie i'm ok to save a space for sponsors, but not obtrude it on users)(12:34:22 PM) tweenk: I think the exposure and consequentially the amount of money we can get in exchange for splash screen placement is exponentially greater than for something hidden in a menu item(12:34:30 PM) valavanisalex: Great... let me know if you want any further details on the proposal. Can follow up later.(12:34:35 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, I can also put the leeds proposal to a vote to make it formally official.(12:35:00 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, don't be shy about delegating or asking for help(12:35:05 PM) Mc-: tweenk: you think in terms of selling the space :/(12:35:27 PM) Tavmjong: Can we unofficially approve Leeds proposal now?(12:35:28 PM) valavanisalex: OK, although there are still some missing chunks. Maybe get back to me with comments on the doc first?(12:35:42 PM) bryce: Tavmjong, sure; I think we did that last month but can't hurt(12:36:00 PM) Tavmjong: +1 for Leeds proposal.(12:36:20 PM) valavanisalex: At this stage, just need to confirm dates, and then we can patch up all the internal details after(12:36:22 PM) tweenk: Mc-: not necessarily selling, but I think it's something very valuable we can trade with sponsors(12:36:26 PM) bryce: STRAW VOTE: on Leeds Apr 11-14?(12:36:31 PM) bryce: +1 for leeds proposal(12:36:38 PM) tweenk: +1 for Leeds(12:36:51 PM) Tavmjong: +1 for Leeds proposal.(12:37:25 PM) bryce: the one other item I see on the agenda from alex is C++11. valavanisalex would you like to go through that real quick in a few minutes or leave it for next month?(12:37:31 PM) tedg: +1 Leeds(12:37:36 PM) bryce: ScislaC?(12:37:51 PM) ScislaC: +1 (sorry, multitasking)(12:38:06 PM) ScislaC: (for Leeds)(12:38:27 PM) bryce: ok so informal straw vote is 6/7 board members. We'll have an official vote on list.(12:38:42 PM) valavanisalex: Sure, I guess C++11 has become a little more pressing with the recent GNOME libs dependency(12:38:52 PM) tedg: +1 for ScislaC multitasking(12:38:52 PM) bryce: ok go(12:39:00 PM) ScislaC: :P(12:39:01 PM) tweenk: nitpicking, isn't that 5/7? Jon and Martin aren't here :)(12:39:15 PM) Tavmjong: == C++11 ==(12:39:25 PM) bryce: tweenk, heh right(12:39:44 PM) valavanisalex: Although we can still handle conditional builds (i.e., C++11 required for new GNOME; else optional)(12:40:14 PM) tweenk: I'd rather require C++11 everywhere(12:40:36 PM) valavanisalex: However, my concern is that we get into slightly mirky territory if we don't firmly define the language standard for a project(12:40:43 PM) valavanisalex: +1 tweenk(12:41:07 PM) tedg: +1 C++11(12:41:12 PM) tweenk: GCC 4.8 that's in Ubuntu 14.04 LTS already has full C++11 support(12:41:13 PM) valavanisalex: The only bottleneck to a hard C++11 dep is old OSX(12:41:23 PM) tedg: tweenk: Not full, but close enough for what we ened.(12:41:24 PM) valavanisalex: AFAIK(12:41:25 PM) tedg: need(12:41:42 PM) tweenk: https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.8/cxx0x_status.html(12:41:59 PM) tweenk: the only unimplemented item is N2670 which is irrelevant(12:42:25 PM) tedg: tweenk: Language features, but the stdlib was missing stuff. I remember regex specifically, but I think there were more.(12:42:35 PM) tweenk: tedg: ah, OK(12:42:51 PM) valavanisalex: Once we have a hard C++11 dep we can also tidy up handling of unordered containers(12:42:52 PM) FailBit: we don't use regex do we?(12:43:26 PM) tweenk: FailBit: we don't use C++11's version, there's probably a few places where GRegex is used(12:43:36 PM) FailBit: that's what I meant(12:43:47 PM) FailBit: also, we have t-rex included in btool, we can throw that out if we require c++11(12:44:02 PM) FailBit: and it supports <regex>(12:44:04 PM) FailBit: mind you(12:44:20 PM) Mc-: tweenk: from a quick grep, only once, in ./xml/repr-io.cpp(12:44:49 PM) tweenk: Mc-: ah, I remember that was to fix an XXE vuln(12:45:10 PM) Tavmjong: We use Glib::Regex a number of places.(12:45:16 PM) valavanisalex: Requiring a C++11 compliant compiler shouldn't cause us any issues (we already *can* build with --std=c++11)(12:46:13 PM) valavanisalex: However, a more thorny issue is giving the go-ahead for *migration* of our code to C++11 style (i.e., breaking backward compatibility)(12:46:37 PM) bryce: so a couple thoughts(12:46:47 PM) tedg: Yes, and I think that 4 years after the spec, it's conservative enough.(12:46:49 PM) valavanisalex: As soon as we start using e.g., auto pointers, range-based for loops etc, we'll break builds for old OSX etc(12:47:13 PM) FailBit: I think that's acceptable(12:47:19 PM) bryce: one is I'd sort of like to get the 0.92 release out the door before we undertake any more big changes; so may as well have one more release with the OSX backwards compat before we bid it adieu(12:47:37 PM) valavanisalex: (btw, C++11 code migration is something I'd happily work on)(12:47:56 PM) tweenk: bryce: sounds OK(12:48:03 PM) FailBit: if support for OS X 10.5 (or even 10.6) disappear then it won't be that bad(12:48:08 PM) FailBit: 10.7+, I have a problem with(12:48:21 PM) su_v: 10.9+ would be if we require c++11(12:48:25 PM) valavanisalex: bryce, agreed as long as timescale is relatively short(12:48:27 PM) bryce: we've had a few false starts on that got put off because with it delayed stuff got in that made it a bit unstable, so bit of a merry-go-round unfortunately(12:48:38 PM) su_v: everything older defaults to old linstdc++(12:48:40 PM) su_v: *libstdc++(12:48:45 PM) bryce: well the issue is just regaining stability again, and getting the cmake conversion finished(12:49:18 PM) bryce: what was the second item? hmm(12:49:30 PM) valavanisalex: su_v I think you mentioned a custom toolchain build for OSX. Is that particularly painful?(12:49:49 PM) bryce: I guess that's it, just want to get an actual release done before we risk anything(12:50:06 PM) tweenk: bryce: I agree with this plan(12:50:14 PM) Tavmjong: +1(12:50:29 PM) su_v: valavanisalex: I won't go there myself. MacPorts tries to offer that (but with varying support depending on how much individual ports insist on their own logic when configuring on OS X)(12:50:32 PM) valavanisalex: bryce, OK that's fine then. Maybe feature freeze on 0.92 soon then?(12:50:34 PM) Mc-: so, .91.1 then .92 ?(12:50:44 PM) Mc-: or directly .92 ?(12:51:10 PM) Tavmjong: tweenk: You were working on a test for GTK/C++11, what is the status?(12:51:20 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, sure. like I mentioned there's some tasks still for completing cmake, and it would be lovely if everyone could put a couple hours to take a look.(12:51:51 PM) FailBit: valavanisalex: to suppport 10.7 or 10.8, that would basically require building and static-linking a libc++ dylib to every single port that inkscape requires, directly or indirectly(12:51:52 PM) FailBit: that is painful(12:51:53 PM) valavanisalex: Yeah, I'm not great with CMake but will pitch in some effort(12:51:58 PM) bryce: Mc-, I think ScislaC had adopted the 0.91.1 action, I have just focused on 0.92. I think the two releases could be done orthogonally to each other(12:52:08 PM) tweenk: Tavmjong: I would essentially need 2 computers side by side to test this properly(12:52:38 PM) su_v: FailBit: and compiling (one or more) llvm ports from source, and on top of that twice (for clang again)(12:52:43 PM) tweenk: Tavmjong: last I remember, the change worked for me but failed for you with some sort of cryptic error(12:52:47 PM) FailBit: ew(12:52:56 PM) bryce: presently I'm working on the man page support in the cmake rules. There are some optional params in the automake rules that need to be looked at adding to cmake, if we still need them.(12:53:06 PM) bryce: also win32 and osx on cmake would be nice to have.(12:53:08 PM) tweenk: su_v: how about a devlibs approach?(12:53:14 PM) ScislaC: Yeah, the I'm still all about 0.91.1... I just won't be able to get back on that until after SCALE(12:53:30 PM) su_v: FailBit: with upstream Macports being rather "careless" with updates and thus repeated rounds of full compiling from source of the toolchain just to compile the rest(12:53:40 PM) tweenk: su_v: basically put the modern compiler for old OSXes in a repo(12:53:46 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, ok think we're keeping you from your appointment. I'll take a task of posting somethink to rekindle 0.92 release work(12:53:49 PM) valavanisalex: FWIW, some distros (e.g., Ubuntu) have been patching their GNOME library pkgconfig files to require --std=c++11. Maybe this will be pushed upstream too?(12:54:18 PM) bryce: valavanisalex, perhaps you can put some thoughts into a todo list for C++-11 post-release, and add them to the roadmap in wiki?(12:54:53 PM) bryce:(12:54:54 PM) valavanisalex: Yeah, I'm afraid I'll have to get going. Will take a look at C++-11 roadmapping (think I wrote something in Toronto, so will revisit it!)(12:55:02 PM) su_v: tweenk: I think mid- to long-term, support for older OS X will have to be dropped (Inkscape would not be the first free opensource project using C++ to do so)(12:55:06 PM) bryce: cool thanks(12:55:11 PM) tweenk: valavanisalex: good bye!(12:55:13 PM) ***bryce looks at the list(12:55:19 PM) valavanisalex: Bye! :)(12:55:26 PM) valavanisalex left the room.(12:55:41 PM) bryce: tweenk, we touched on the sponsorship levels earlier, that's next on the agenda(12:55:46 PM) bryce: == Sponsorship Levels ==(12:56:17 PM) tweenk: obviously, the highest sponsorship level would be something on the splash screen, but looks like not everyone is OK with that(12:56:32 PM) FailBit: I am not personally(12:56:55 PM) bryce: tweenk, yeah that's a good discussion point. I can see that would be important but contentious(12:57:00 PM) tweenk: so a level lower would be the about screen and a banner on the webpage for X months(12:57:06 PM) FailBit: wait, why are we getting a splash again?(12:57:16 PM) ***su_v -1 on splash screen(12:57:35 PM) FailBit: inkscape starts fast enough that it probably doesn't need a splash most of the time(12:57:39 PM) bryce: I have to say I'm fairly anti-splash screen myself, independent of whether there is any advertising on it(12:58:00 PM) FailBit: (+ the initialization of gtk/glib to create windows would be a large % of the loading time anyways…)(12:58:00 PM) tweenk: FailBit: unless you have a lot of fonts(12:58:03 PM) bryce: FailBit, I also suspect there's fat to trim in the startup process, although I seem to recall you disagreed. :-)(12:58:13 PM) Ede_123 left the room (quit: Quit: Miranda NG! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-ng.org/).(12:58:14 PM) FailBit: tweenk: I fixed most of the fonts stuff(12:58:37 PM) su_v: it's now mostly exposed when opening text and font dialog(12:58:40 PM) su_v: (instead of at launch time)(12:58:53 PM) su_v: and when importing a PDF file (IIRC)(12:58:53 PM) tweenk: FailBit: initializing Glib takes essentially no time, not sure about GTK but that should also be fast(12:59:10 PM) bryce: I can think of some other ideas that might be better than a splash screen, that we could consider(12:59:31 PM) Mc-: iirc there was a wip to be able to add fonts "live" when inkscape is already running which should also be useable at inkscape launch(12:59:32 PM) tweenk: bryce: OK(12:59:48 PM) FailBit: tweenk: on an i7-4790k, ubuntu 14.04.3 with exactly 2000 fonts installed, startup time for inkscape takes 0.9s(12:59:57 PM) FailBit: with 465 fonts intalled it takes 0.3s(01:00:25 PM) ScislaC: Mc-: there was but I hadn't seen any updates on it very recently(01:00:33 PM) prokoudine [~alex@ppp25-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] entered the room.(01:01:06 PM) FailBit: (noting that it jumps to 2 seconds when the fill&stroke dialog is open)(01:01:21 PM) bryce: so possible places for sponsorship branding in the app: Splash screen, about screen, add-on templates, default templates, distinct entries in Help menu, splash screen during the installer process, Intro page on first usage, tooltips(01:01:26 PM) su_v: Mc-: the patch was mostly for reloading newly installed fonts without having to restart inkscape (rereading font caches) - how would that help with launch time?(01:02:18 PM) tweenk: okay so the consensus seems to be that people are against having a splash screen for functional reasons(01:02:43 PM) tweenk: another place for branding would be the background behind the page, but that's a little overkill(01:02:57 PM) tweenk: I like the installer idea(01:03:02 PM) bryce: more areas: status bar, dialogs, plugins/add-ons help pages(01:03:11 PM) Mc-: ...(01:03:24 PM) tweenk: Mc-: those are just ideas(01:03:29 PM) prokoudine_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).(01:03:49 PM) bryce: yeah, just throwing stuff out. Most of these will be annoying.(01:04:17 PM) su_v: adverts for sponsors in the status bar? I'd then rather have it in the splash screen (and an option to disable the splash screen)(01:04:18 PM) bryce: IMHO 99% of advertising is junk and annoying. Good advertising tends to look more like educational material(01:04:58 PM) bryce: I don't care about cures for toenail fungus unless I *actually have toenail fungus*, and then I care a LOT.(01:05:13 PM) Mc-: as as said earlier, imo the idea should be to thank donors, not do anything that would be considered "intrusive advertising" by anyone(01:05:41 PM) bryce: so if there's any ways we can present the sponsor branding in a way that is consistent with the user's interest, that would be best(01:05:48 PM) Mc-: (ie "the act of seeing the logo of a sponsor" should be a voluntary act of the user)(01:06:16 PM) Mc-: (and not something we throw on the user)(01:06:27 PM) bryce: I suppose what a user really wants to know about the sponsor is how that sponsor's money has helped the user's inkscape experience(01:06:50 PM) tedg: I think that the key is to make it look like a thank you more than a sales opportunity. We don't want sponsors who are interested in eyeballs as much as those that are interested in the project being better.(01:06:52 PM) tweenk: bryce: that would speak in favor of having a sponsors page(01:07:02 PM) Tavmjong: bryce: Good point!(01:07:04 PM) bryce: or maybe why they are sponsoring inkscape(01:07:18 PM) tweenk: tedg: that's an important insight(01:07:29 PM) bryce: tedg, agreed(01:08:04 PM) tweenk: I was thinking more along the lines of "what can we trade in exchange for money/other resources for the project" but maybe that's not the right paradigm(01:08:37 PM) tedg: I think that the quote is interesting, more because it would make the sponsors page more interesting to view. Or actually have some fun reasons on the installer.(01:08:42 PM) bryce: another idea to mull over - instead of like tacking a logo onto an existing part of inkscape, what if it had its own area(01:09:01 PM) bryce: so like we have the About screen to thank contributors, what if we had a Sponsors page(01:09:36 PM) tweenk: bryce: that's what I was thinking when I mentioned the sponsors page, basically a separate dialog like the About box(01:09:39 PM) bryce: and rather than just have a list of logos, maybe Inkscape-it up, like take a photo of the actual employees of the company traced into SVG(01:09:51 PM) tweenk: bryce: nice idea :)(01:10:08 PM) tweenk: bryce: and there would be some space to describe how the sponsorship helped(01:10:29 PM) bryce: perhaps if their sponsorship helped establish a feature, that drawing could be an example of that feature(01:11:28 PM) tedg: I think we want the sponsor to be able to make the SVG, something like 200x400px made by them. I think we should require it to be made in Inkscape though :-)(01:11:50 PM) bryce: tedg, yeah(01:12:30 PM) bryce: tweenk, ok good discussion so far. Would you like to incorporate all this and shoot to me, and I'll put it in for a board vote?(01:12:57 PM) bryce: ScislaC, I want to get to your GSoC 2016 agenda item next, if you can spare a moment to discuss?(01:12:57 PM) tweenk: bryce: I think it's too soon for voting, I'll make a doc with this info(01:13:04 PM) bryce: tweenk, ok sounds good(01:13:08 PM) bryce: == GSoC 2016 ==(01:13:54 PM) tweenk: bryce: its' clear that there needs to be some more discussion of how sponsors are presented in the application itself, I think website things and regular publicity won't be as controversial(01:14:09 PM) bryce: tweenk, yeah think you're right(01:14:31 PM) bryce: ScislaC, I gather we have until Feb to get stuff together for the project application?(01:15:22 PM) ScislaC: bryce: The 8th is when we can submit an application to be a mentoring org.(01:15:29 PM) tweenk: bryce: On the subject of GSoC, I checked and it looks like I can be a mentor(01:15:36 PM) ScislaC: Deadline is the 19th.(01:16:03 PM) bryce: my goal is to get the funded project system up to at least be able to list project ideas and mentors. I think that's a straightforward amount of Django work, just need to scrape together some evenings to put it together. Worst case we can rough up something manually in wiki.(01:16:05 PM) ScislaC: So 20th-26th is when they will review them.(01:16:09 PM) bryce: ScislaC, of Feb?(01:16:12 PM) ScislaC: Correct(01:16:17 PM) bryce: ScislaC, ok(01:16:17 PM) tweenk: ScislaC: the last time there was a problem with our GSoC landing page, right?(01:16:45 PM) ScislaC: Yes our suggested projects page was lacking quite a bit.(01:16:53 PM) bryce: tweenk, there was some missing details like which mentors are associated with which project ideas(01:17:03 PM) ScislaC: They really want to have a mentor pre-assigned, etc.(01:17:26 PM) bryce: I did a review of some of the other accepted projects to see what data they typically display, so I can make the django app include and display them.(01:17:42 PM) Tavmjong: I need to head off... just one last comment: I'll help with the GSoC stuff.(01:17:43 PM) tweenk: ScislaC: that looks like a fairly new requirement(01:18:10 PM) ScislaC: bryce: I can send an email to the devel list later asking for mentors to step up now because of the need to be more organized.(01:18:26 PM) bryce: some of the projects include "resources" like pointers to help documents or other related background info. Many also list some technical knowledge requirements(01:18:35 PM) bryce: ScislaC, that's a very good idea(01:18:41 PM) ScislaC: tweenk: It wasn't, they just cracked down on it though last year. Blender didn't make it in last either for the same reasons.(01:19:22 PM) bryce: ScislaC, one thing I couldn't find is a sort of official list of what's required of projects. If you know of that or run across it, please cc it my way.(01:19:59 PM) bryce: ok anything else on GSoC?(01:20:06 PM) ScislaC: bryce: I will look for it, at the very least I can dig up the response they gave when I inquired about our rejection.(01:21:05 PM) bryce: tweenk, did you want to discuss licensing or can we leave that for next month?(01:21:23 PM) bryce: == Licensing Issues GPL v2+ ==(01:21:38 PM) tweenk: bryce: I need to follow up with a few people on that(01:22:04 PM) tweenk: xml/quote.cpp is cleared for GPLv2+, there are two remaining LPE files that are GPLv2 only(01:22:10 PM) bryce: Think we've already discussed a lot of this on the list, and I think there's various action items already in play. But are there any aspects that the board will need to decide on or be officially involved with?(01:22:23 PM) tweenk: tedg: I recalled you touched one of those and I didn't receive a reply from you(01:23:07 PM) tweenk: bryce: I think the board needs to approve whether we want to advertise ourselves as GPLv2+ compliant(01:23:35 PM) tweenk: bryce: also, there's the issue of 2 files that are GPLv3 only - it might be easier to say we are GPLv3+ but keep most files GPLv2+(01:23:53 PM) tedg: tweenk: Yeah, I wanted to see if I could just assign the copyright to the conservancy, but never figured that out.(01:24:02 PM) tweenk: bryce: I mean the two files from GIMP, they're GPLv3+(01:24:09 PM) tedg: tweenk: I have no issue fixing it, just wanted to find a more complete solution.(01:24:19 PM) bryce: tweenk, ok, I'll add a vote for that(01:24:32 PM) tweenk: tedg: I think you can do that later, for now you can just reply to the e-mail and say that you agree to license all your Inkscape code under GPLv2+(01:24:55 PM) bryce: in my mind we're definitely GPLv2+ and anything that's v3+ only needs to be fixed or rewritten. But an official statement of intent would likely help here.(01:25:04 PM) tedg: Yes, one of those "seems like a good idea but ran out of time things."(01:25:47 PM) tweenk: bryce: the GPLv3+ things are an expression evaluator from GIMP, which is non-essential but useful - we could probably make it conditionally compiled(01:25:48 PM) bryce: tedg, fwiw I'd hold off bugging SFC for the time being. Sounds like they're under immense funding crunch right now and all hands are engaged in emergency fundraising(01:26:26 PM) tweenk: bryce: and there's one more thing from GIMP but I don't remember what it was(01:26:30 PM) bryce: tweenk, have we tried contacting GIMP / authors to get the license version adjusted?(01:26:46 PM) tweenk: bryce: not yet, but I can try(01:26:49 PM) su_v: code for the rulers, and the GimpSpinScale widget, IIRC(01:27:02 PM) tweenk: su_v: yes, that was it(01:27:18 PM) tweenk: I remembered it was some widget :)(01:27:19 PM) su_v: (the sliders are so broken and latest GTK3, maybe we can revert or rewrite those anyway)(01:27:25 PM) su_v: s/and/under/(01:27:49 PM) bryce: tweenk, yeah try that, might be the most straightforward solution(01:27:55 PM) tweenk: su_v: I think we could just update them to the newer versions in GIMP(01:28:09 PM) su_v: and usage is cumbersome, to say the least (for many users, apart apparently from those using Ubuntu's default theme)(01:28:18 PM) bryce: maybe there's other stuff we'd like to borrow from GIMP so having the licensing straightened out would help in the future(01:28:22 PM) su_v: tweenk: GIMP gtk3 stuff is not done yet(01:28:39 PM) tweenk: su_v: oh, I thought they already migrated(01:28:43 PM) su_v: they basically do the same as inkscape: make sure it builds, but nothing is addressed wrt changes in the toolkit itself(01:28:58 PM) su_v: tweenk: no, planned for 3.0 (before that there will be 2.10)(01:29:23 PM) tweenk: that's useful info, good to know we're not the worst offenders(01:29:36 PM) bryce: tweenk, ok anything else on that?(01:30:07 PM) tweenk: I have to go soon or I'll go hungry, so action items for me: write up sponsorship info, finalize GPLv2+ migration(01:30:18 PM) tweenk: anything else?(01:30:18 PM) bryce: tweenk, yeah same(01:30:25 PM) bryce: == Other Business ==(01:30:41 PM) bryce: Any one got any other items?(01:30:57 PM) ScislaC: Not me(01:31:03 PM) bryce: Next meeting will be Feb 5th(01:31:13 PM) tweenk: OK!(01:31:34 PM) bryce: ScislaC, mind posting minutes? I'll fix up the board meeting page with action items and next month's agenda.(01:32:05 PM) tweenk: OK I really have to go now :) see you everybody!(01:32:15 PM) tweenk left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).ScislaC scott(01:32:29 PM) bryce: == End of Meeting ==
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