<Tavmjong> ============ Weekly Meeting ==============<Tavmjong> Who is here?<ScislaC> here<DASPRiD> here<Tavmjong> doctormon: Ping?<Tavmjong> bryceh_: Ping?<doctormon> Tavmjong: pong<bryceh_> heya<Tavmjong> Do we have an agenda?<bryceh_> yes, I posted one last night<bryceh_> do we have a karen or mo?<doctormon> mizmo: ping<Tavmjong> bryceh_: Where did you post it? I can't seem to find it.<ScislaC> Tavmjong: board list<doctormon> Does this mean the meeting is a board meeting?<Tavmjong> Got it.<bryceh_> 14 To Tavmjong Bah ( 68) └─>[Inkscape-board] Agenda for tomorrow's meeting (was Re: Hacking Sessions)<bryceh_> doctormon, no; the meeting was organized by and started off by the board but is made open projectwide.<bryceh_> I should have posted the agenda to the devel list, but was just replying to the original organizational thread.<mizmo> hey<bryceh_> == Agenda ==<bryceh_> * decide indiegogo or paypal.<bryceh_> then itemize some tasks.<bryceh_> * fundraising pitch wordsmithing<bryceh_> * estimate costs<bryceh_> * finalize dates and locale decisions & update wiki.<bryceh_><doctormon> Alright. I'm a proponent of paypal, it's more open and we'll be able to do more with it later.<ScislaC> one more if we can get to it<ScislaC> * Create a standard policy for promoting commercial items not created by the project proper.<ScislaC> doctormon: what do you mean by we will be able to do more with it later?<bryceh_> I'm fine with paypal if we can get a volunteer to take care of the page development and whatnot<tedg> Is there any difference cost wise?<ScislaC> tedg: we'd get double dipped on indiegogo<bryceh_> tedg, karen mentioned the difference in an earlier meeting, let me dig up her notes<doctormon> ScislaC: Paypal provisions us with more control over why someone is paying us, ability to record those amounts etc. IndieGoGo allows us to create projects along the structure of that funding site.<tedg> Ah, so we'd have to make the "campaigns" ourselves using PayPal.<JonCruz> doctormon: so.... figure out why 5 seconds is evil?<ScislaC> JonCruz: meeting is happening right now<doctormon> We'd use zipfelchappe to perform the campiagns and payment side of things.<JonCruz> ScislaC: yay meeting<doctormon> http://zipfelchappe.readthedocs.org/en/latest/installation.html#payment-providers<bryceh_> hmm, not spotting it in the notes but yeah, double-dipping on the money vs. having to do the campaigns and page setup ourselves<johan_e_> (sorry I am late, su_v warned me )<Tavmjong> Where does the zipfelchappe code go?<ScislaC> well, with what I read about indiegogo this morning, I don't really feel like it's any less risky than going it on our own...<bryceh_> hopefully we would be doing enough fundraisers that we'd be able to reuse the setup effort many times* ScislaC nods<bryceh_> ScislaC, what'd you read?<johan_e_> total noob here, but, if we go with paypal, does that allow the donor to assign the money to a certain goal? or does it all end up in one account?<ScislaC> One was - http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/7/4594824/less-than-10-percent-of-projects-on-indiegogo-get-fully-funded The other was looking back at a handful of proposed ones which fell far short.<tedg> Yeah, so then I'm +1 on Paypal. I think we basically need to setup the campaigns anyway.<ScislaC> (ones related to adding features to open source projects)<doctormon> Tavmjong: It'd be pulled in via pip, although the intergration code would be on inkscape-web. There's a dep on fiencms which will conflict with django-cms, so I'll probably need to recreate that part of it. (it's weird to have a django app depend on a cms)<bryceh_> johan_e_, it'd all go into one account. We'd need tooling to separately track that. But we're planning to do that anyway.<johan_e_> bryceh_: ok thanks<ScislaC> +1 on Paypal for me<johan_e_> (withholding vote, i do not know enough about either)<bryceh_> is anyone pro-Indiegogo?<bryceh_> alrighty... sounds like we have a rough consensus favoring the paypal approach.<JonCruz> are we going to have open-source-we-take-your-money issues with paypal?<doctormon> JonCruz: You mean refund issues?<bryceh_> JonCruz, maybe that's a question for when karen's here<JonCruz> http://pydanny.com/we-are-not-using-paypal.html<JonCruz> no, I mean paypal says "our robots noticed odd transactions, so we freeze your money"<JonCruz> or stuff along those lines<bryceh_> JonCruz, that's happened to us before and SFC took care of it. So if they're recommending we use PayPal I trust they're giving us ok advice<JonCruz> aka arbitrary freezing of accounts and seizing of assets from open source<houz> you should at least move all money from the paypal account to a real bank account so a frozen paypal account doesn't harm too much<ScislaC> bryceh_: that's what I thought (that it happened and they got it resolved)<JonCruz> just wanted to be sure their ongoing practice was finally changed<bryceh_> houz, indeed, and SFC will handle automation of that, as they did previously<bryceh_> for a while SFC was recommending we use google checkout, but I guess their terms changed so they're not ideal anymore<ScislaC> So, without Karen here, should we move on to the next item?<bryceh_> the important thing here is that we're going to handle the front end ourselves. The backend could theoretically be swapped with something else if we needed.<doctormon> Yeah we took the google checkout away from the website.* ScislaC nods at bryce<doctormon> If the SFC has a payment gateway like worldpay, we could take creditcards directly (by which I mean pass along the info, not store them). But there must be a reason SFC don't dot hat.<bryceh_> ScislaC, before we move on, I'd like to itemize some near-term tasks for the paypal work<ScislaC> cool beans<Tavmjong> Any estimate at how long it will take to setup zipfelchappe?<bryceh_> doctormon, you mentioned zipfelchappe as one possibility, have you used that previously for other things? Is it a good & solid for us?<bryceh_> doctormon, or any other options you know of that might be worth considering?<doctormon> bryceh_: I have not used it, my searches show few pre-built options and the more pre-built the more incompatible. but that's not too much of a problem because django apps are pretty modular. Timescales are fuzzy though, because we don't have a spec.<bryceh_> doctormon, ok, so sounds like maybe first task would be an experimentation/proof-of-concept ?<doctormon> bryceh_: Yes<bryceh_> doctormon, would you be willing to own that ?<doctormon> bryceh_: As the resident python developer, yes. :-)<doctormon> But any help, please.<johan_e_> perhaps, if it is not so well known yet, the zipfelchappe guys would be happy to help out a "big project" like inkscape ;)<doctormon> This has interesting things to say about paypal: https://github.com/feinheit/zipfelchappe/<bryceh_> another task is to decide where to integrate this into the website<bryceh_> i.e. where in the menu to fit it<Tavmjong> Look at the bottom of https://github.com/feinheit/zipfelchappe<Tavmjong> Does this mean that it doesn't currently work with PayPal?<bryceh_> we'll need to determine whether to set up a new paypal account or use the existing inkscape paypal account (Q for karen I think)<doctormon> Although I'm questing the sanity of that repo, it has a sqlite db comitted into it.<doctormon> We'll need a bunch of keys for the cross-site intergration for whichever account we get.<bryceh_> will we need a page design for this?<JonCruz> >_<<bryceh_> guessing we do. ok any other tasks?<tedg> bryceh_, Nope<tedg> bryceh_, I think alot depends on the first run.<tedg> We should know where we need to go after that.<doctormon> Tavmjong: That's an unknown question. I'm actualyl going to take zipfelchappe off the table. I may choose to take some of it's design patterns, but the quality of the code isn't good enough.<doctormon> bryceh_: You need two parts right, one is projects, the other is backers+transactions.<Tavmjong> What do other SFC project use?<JonCruz> doctormon: support you in the db being a red-flag<doctormon> JonCruz: There's also other stuff, duplicate model behaviours, lack of models I would expect to see. So I'm digging through the code more.<doctormon> bryceh_: Can I do some research and get back for next week on it?<JonCruz> yeah, when security or money become involved, quality of the codebase is very important<bryceh_> doctormon, sounds like a good plan<doctormon> My nursery school just called about an administrative issue, I gotta go pick up my 20 year project.<bryceh_> ok, cya doctormon<bryceh_> ok, can everyone take a quick 2 minute peek at the fundraiser pitch and give me any wordsmithing suggestions?<johan_e_> ok<Tavmjong> Can you remind us where it is (I've got a faulty brain)?* ScislaC has a faulty brain atm too<bryceh_> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Hackfest2015#The_Pitch<Tavmjong> s/Us/Our/<johan_e_> and board so our volunteer developers to attend the working sessions. -> and board so our volunteer developers can attend the working sessions in person.<johan_e_> Things we hope to… -> Things we plan to...<JonCruz> "Us developers work remotely" seems awkward<Tavmjong> Things we hope to... -> Things we will...<ScislaC> I wish the wiki had multi-user simultaneous editing...<JonCruz> but "We the developers" would be too formal :-)<JonCruz> sub-etha is mourned<johan_e_> The whole pitch is somewhat formal I find. Not very exciting.<Tavmjong> Us developers -> Our developers<Tavmjong> johan_e: Agreed<bryceh_> johan_e_, got some verbage to supply?<johan_e_> perhaps you can say something about what makes an IRL meeting special. something like:<tedg> bryceh_, I like that karaoke is suggested.<johan_e_> tedg: your welcome :D<Tavmjong> If this is going to be a public plea, it needs to be jazzed up with some figures. Maybe some images of what we will be working on?<johan_e_> Being together in one room allows us to work on things that we can't do remote: ...<ScislaC> I guess a question is, are we wanting formal yet fun? Because we don't want to come across as unprofessional.<JonCruz> might we want the tone of Mythbusters as opposed to Nova?<ScislaC> I like Nova... :-/<johan_e_> or "tasks that need thorough discussion and coordination among developers"<JonCruz> ScislaC: yes. as do we. However...<johan_e_> Is this our first hackathon?<JonCruz> the tone of their usual narration is interesting.<JonCruz> johan_e_: first sponsored I believe<johan_e_> In that case, we need to tell that too. It is exciting of itself<johan_e_> by itself*<tedg> bryceh_, Perhaps we could talk about it like this: "We've noticed that in-person meetings bring about greater cohesion and more creative results. We want your help in making Inkscape have a bright future."<ScislaC> We could use a blink tag on the word bright!<tedg> "making sure Inkscape has"<JonCruz> tedg: "greater cohesion" is just a half step from "leveraging synergies". Might need to tweak that sub-phrase* bryceh_ nods<JonCruz> or...<tedg> "stronger relationships"<JonCruz> "making sure Inkscape brings benefit to end users" - but with good phrasing<bryceh_> ok thanks, good suggestions. I'll incorporate all these before the next meeting, unless someone else wants to take a shot at doing the next revision?<JonCruz> reminding people that the software is not the end goal, just the tool that will result in them being able to bring their creative endeavors to life<johan_e_> i dunno , we can be frank about it. "greater cohesion" -> "greater cooperation"<tedg> "making sure Inkscape has a bright future bringing benefits to designers everywhere."<johan_e_> we should not only focus on designers, i think.<JonCruz> right<JonCruz> I was just thinking of phrasing on that point<johan_e_> most users I know are simple figure drawers like me<ScislaC> our users<JonCruz> "users from all walks of life"<tedg> johan_e_, Sure, but everyone needs to believe if they "just learned a little more" they'd become Monet ;-)<johan_e_> tedg: haha<ScislaC> :)<johan_e_> tedg: my peers wouldn't be happy with Monet'esque pieces, but yeah<JonCruz> tedg: yeah... that aspect of bringing their visions to life<JonCruz> johan_e_: picaso then? :-)<johan_e_> what about fixing bugs?<johan_e_> people must like us fixing bugs<johan_e_> "particularly nasty bugs"<JonCruz> "teaming up to squash bugs"<Tavmjong> I like us fixing bugs.<tedg> "Difficult to remotely coordinate bug hunting"<ScislaC> johan_e_: they do, but they want us to fix specific bugs mostly...<JonCruz> "hands-on group bug smashing"<Tavmjong> Donate and nominate a bug...<JonCruz> or...<bryceh_> so apparently my wife wants to kill my 3yr old daughter. While they were at Target she opened a thing of liquid soap and got it over everything in the cart. ><<JonCruz> "Donate, but also nominate a bug"<ScislaC> YIKES!<bryceh_> so, next on the agenda is cost estimates<JonCruz> depends on which kind of soap<Tavmjong> bryceh_: Clever girl!<tedg> bryceh_, At least everything is clean now!<bryceh_> Tavmjong, hazards of having children with an engineer I guess...<ScislaC> bryceh_: is this for the LGM related one or the otherwise discussed smaller one?<bryceh_> so one question I have is did we finalize the decision of Toronto vs Boston? I'm fuzzy on that and the wiki page doesn't help<ScislaC> LGM<bryceh_> ScislaC, lets focus on LGM for now<ScislaC> I don't think it was finalized by leaning more toward Toronto for costs and less visa hassle<Tavmjong> I think LGM makes more sense... but have we gotten feedback from them?<JonCruz> travel to/from meet, but not local transport, right?<bryceh_> JonCruz, tbd<bryceh_> Tavmjong, I haven't seen anything recent<ScislaC> Who had reached out to them?<Tavmjong> Doctor Mo me thinks.<JonCruz> there is the visa hassle issue, but then also the 'avoiding the large oppressive government' factor. Not as big for this hackathon<bryceh_> yep, with Josh and I CC'd<Tavmjong> Did we get any thing back from LGM at all?<ScislaC> bryceh_: just re-read it... no wonder I didn't remember clearly, last word was 3 weeks ago...<bryceh_> they asked about # people, technical requirements we have, etc. but say they could roll us into the booking without trouble<johan_e_> i assume everybody brings a laptop?<bryceh_> Martin answered the questions, and then no word since that I know of<ScislaC> Last message said Ginger was going to reach out to the local linux community and CS groups as well.<Tavmjong> Are they OK with us meeting before or after?<bryceh_> "We're talking a two solid day, maybe three days (if you think Torronto<bryceh_> is a place we should see and not just visit ;-)), a projector, wifi, a<bryceh_> room for about 15 people and some networking contacts to get the message<bryceh_> out there for the recruitment portion."<bryceh_> Tavmjong, didn't get discussed<ScislaC> From Ginger's last email "We'll be booking rooms at the University of Toronto for the duration of LGM (which will run from ~29 April to 2 May), and it shouldn't be much trouble at all to extend that in one direction or another." So it seems open in either direction.<Tavmjong> LGM is a pretty low-key meeting so there is time for hacking during the meeting but it would definitely be better to have some time before or after.<bryceh_> ok, so sounds like we need to touch base with a few more people before calling consensus on location<bryceh_> so that task is still open<bryceh_> as an exercise let's go ahead and assume Toronto<bryceh_> what's our preference for before vs. after?<bryceh_> and as to length... 2 days, 3 days...?<ScislaC> Both of those issues I am open on as others likely have more constraints<Tavmjong> I'm going to have to think about it.... I may have a scheduling conflict I just realized.<bryceh_> having it after might let us hold some preparatory conversations during LGM. Having it beforehand might help us be more focused and then use LGM time for followup tasks<bryceh_> ok, for sake of exercise let's arbitrarily pick 3 days prior to LGM in Toronto.<bryceh_> would someone be willing to look up general hotel costs for Toronto in this time period, for next meeting?<bryceh_> also, would someone mind looking up rough estimates on airfare costs from 3-4 different places?<Tavmjong> Pick the cities: Paris, San Francisco, Boston, ?<johan_e_> Zurich :P<bryceh_> those four sound good<JonCruz> LAX?<bryceh_> LAX will be < san fran<JonCruz> usually I've seen it ><bryceh_> or in the same ballpark at least<bryceh_> alright then, LAX instead of San Fran<Tavmjong> Paris: $900,<Tavmjong> LAX: $750<Tavmjong> Zurich: $900<Tavmjong> Boston: $300<Tavmjong> These are if booked now. Fares tend to drop the closer you get then rise up again.* bryceh_ nods<bryceh_> thanks Tav<bryceh_> ok, anyone looking up hotel costs?<Tavmjong> Two star hotel ~$100 per night, probably can do better. Can also share rooms.<Tavmjong> The LGM organizers should have suggested places for less.<JonCruz> what about the student-ish accomodations?<bryceh_> JonCruz, the first LGM the student accomodations were really bad<Mc-> a quick search shows up return flights paris-toronto at ~$600<Tavmjong> Hostel ~$30 per night.<bryceh_> like tiny beds with no mattresses<johan_e_> guys i have to leave, sorry<Tavmjong> MC- for which dates?<Mc-> around end of april to beginning of may<johan_e_> gn<bryceh_> thanks johan_e_<JonCruz> ustay in Wellington had issues. yeah<bryceh_> alright thanks Tav for the estimates<bryceh_> ok, let's wrap the meeting. thanks all<Mc-> (my search was 04/27 - 05/04 on kayak.com for an hypothetical entire week stay )<bryceh_> I'll take care of posting the meeting minutes and updating action items and following up on some stuff. Would someone be willing to write and post meeting minutes?<Tavmjong> MC- Iceland Air does have a cheap flight depending on some dates.<Mc-> yeah, i saw it show up, never took a flight with this company ^^ i'm more used to delta or air france<Tavmjong> MC-: I am using Google Flights which seems to be pretty good. Allows you to scan prices for departure dates and return dates.<Mc-> (in my long history of ... 3 transatlantic flights)
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